Mists of Pandaria PvP Weapon

[LyranVirgo]

PvP weapons requiring 7250 seasonal conquest point would be okay if items wouldn't scale to prideful. But since they are, without those weapons healers have the privilege of not dying ever. This is a massive problem in bg-s but most importantly in arenas. Remove the 7250 cap, and give us the weapon, thus the PvP Power boost asap. This current situation is already terrible, but having to wait until 3rd or 4th week is unacceptable.

[ICritMyKilt]

I would imagine there is probably a reason behind the current limits and balancing.  You complain because healers are hard to kill, but then if things are re-adjusted and you get better gear to kill them with then they are going to be on here complaining because their survivability tanked and they die too much.  Personally, as a healer, I'm always dead really fast even when others survive, so I'm not a good example for balancing PvP. 😁

[LyranVirgo]

The reasoning behind your reply is that you think balancing could be an endless thing. Which is right genarally but not in this case, where the rules and the limits are already set in stone. In this case the PvP gear is scaling up to Grievous and Prideful. In that gear everybody had Grievous weapons at least. The very least. Grievous weapon compared to nothing is insanity and is absolutely unacceptable.

[Aithne]

Somebody would always be complaining. Either the meta is too burst-heavy, and healers die before their first gcd is up, or it's not bursty enough and matches are a 25 minute slogfest.

[LyranVirgo]

Scaling is perfectly fine solution in this situation. The problem is that it is half-assed. Either scale everything or scale nothing. The entre PvP gear (both sets) are scaling. It is good, as it should be. The only problem is that there is no weapon.  So everything scales but its -5000 PvP power. It is not something that is in "whatever" category.

[LyranVirgo]

The current situation is exactly this: There is the last PvP season, everybody is in Grievous set and Prideful just came out. The crux is, that everybody needs to drop their Grievous weapon and replace it with a PvE one that drops from dungeons. It is an inherent gigabuff to everybody that doesnt deal damage. There is 5000 PvP Power worth of damage LESS in the game right now. Meanwhile the PvP resilience is stock standard for 5.4.8 patch.

[Aithne]

Healers are also missing that 5000 PvP Power, which gives them quite a lot of increased healing, and in a "scaled" meta with weapons, you're still ultra rarely able to combo them down during a single cc rotation. So yeah, sure damage would get stronger, but so would heals and shields

[LyranVirgo]

I just checked the Prideful weapon stats on Mistblade1.  It is not 5000, it is 10000. Ultra rarely? The entire MoP arena is about long lockdowns. Name one comp that doesnt lock down for 14+ seconds. Let alone 3 fears in a row is 14 sec. + coil + blanket silence. Thats 20 second from 1 player. What about lockdowns in 3v3 arenas? Add 3 more polymophs and 3 more cyclones + a Bash. Dont come at me with "ultra rarely".  So that 10k absolutely makes or breaks the game right now. I cant even comprehend how the team did not foresee this. Anyways, I see there wont be any effort in changes. So we wait until 4th week for weapons. 

[Aithne]

We've seen the Prideful arena meta not once, but twice. Matches are long af and healers are strong, even in 3v3. There might be a difference that PvP power makes, but it's not nearly as much as you hope it would be.

[LyranVirgo]

You saw it twice but not once it happened without any PvP weapons. It was scaling from Tyranical to Grievous and Grievous to Prideful. In both cases players had PvP weapon that scaled to a stronger one. Hmm so you are telling me that in 2v2, the helaer gets a 14 second lockdown from whatever sources while someone is pumpig his partner, then that 10k pvp power doesnt matter. Okay buddy. Just so you know, I will break it down because you obvioulsy have no clue whatsoever. No offense but why are you even replying if you have no clue? Send someone professional. So.. 10k is roughly +35% damage. Yes around equal +35% healing too. But healing completely goes out of the window if the player is cc'd for 14 seconds. Which is literally every arena. Every single one,no exception. This is why the complaint. That 35% damage literally means wins or losses. For example a Paladin stun is 6 second, in that period I can absolutely deal 400k damage to a player. Add 35% and it becomes 540k damage. Thats a worlds of difference. Not just huge, its massive. I dont understand how can anyone in the team neglect this.

[LyranVirgo]

Anyone who is just joining this thread, here is what I argue,the absolute simplest way. 

PvP Resilience is 80% (unchanged) 

PvP Power since there is no dreadful weapon that scales, in PvP environments ita nonexistent, so -10k PvP Power

Result: 35% less damage overall in the game. This inherently buffs healer comps in 2s and in general. Prove me wrong.

[Aithne]

10k PvP power is exactly an additive 25% bonus to what you already have, which is somewhere around 25% in scaled up dreadful items with maybe a malev piece here and there, so not accounting for the mainstat increases, 10k PvP power would bring your damage bonus from 1.25 times your "non-PvP gear" damage to 1.5 times that damage, meaning you deal roughly 1 - (1.25/1.5) ~ 17% less damage and healers do ~17% less healing, so I've proven your "35% less damage" number wrong already. The impact of this ends up being less than that because 14 second long cc chains, especially in 2s, can be trinketed out of. If "potential real damage lost" is the metric, which is the damage you lose that cannot be efficiently healed up by the healer, the actual number goes to below 10% because losing "real damage" requires the healer to be crowd controlled.

[Aithne]

We are aware that there is an impact, but the potential costs/downsides of mitigating the impact can be more than what this fixes, especially considering how short-lived the problem is.

[LyranVirgo]

Nope. You did not prove me wrong. The only thing that you corrected is that its 25% instead of 35%. It is still insanely huge difference. What I am more concerned about now is that you think a trinket (which has 2 minute cd btw) will save you forever and grants you a "damage problem solved" card. People will just pillar and go again in 18 seconds. Thats is the DR reset if im not mistaken. So between trinkets there can be 3 or 4 waves of massive lockdown. So trinket doesnt change the fact. The other thing: you compared the stats which is just dead wrong. You cant compare to how much it gives in addition to the current. No. Here is how it is calculated: Resilience is flat in both cases so we have to go flat numbers.  10k pvp power is 25% FLAT damage increase and it is not there. So that 400K would be 490K which is still huge. But lets not calculate bursts, how about overall damages. In 2v2 arenas the average damage dealt is 2million. So on big picture 400k additional damage spreading around in the arena is just beyond words. All Im saying is 10 years of private server developement didnt bring clarity. This is the conclusion. Yes,its a short lived problem but still, why cant it be closer to perfect..

[Aithne]

It's still 17% lost in raw damage. If, throughout the entire match, with 25% (currently available) PvP power, you would have dealt 1,250,000 damage, adding the weapon's 10k PvP power would bring that up to 1.5 million damage, and compared to 1.5 million, losing 250k damage is exactly a 17% loss, but the healers also gain like 10% increased healing across most of their opportunities to heal. You're also failing to account for the fact that half the time, you cannot even cc the healer cuz you're busy being cc'd and trying to survive.

[LyranVirgo]

This is exactly the point, that its not 17%. Current pvp power in arena is around 25% cool. But should be 50%. So as I said, we calculate in flats. On 1 mil raw damage that 25% gives 250K but I should get 500K. So between 1.25M and 1.5M there is you 25% damage loss. And it just pretended that its not that big. IT IS THAT BIG. Otherwise I wouldt argue this long. 

 

[LyranVirgo]

If you dont compare them but look at flat numbers, the higher you go the bigger the difference, so its obvious that in bgs where 10M is average per player damage that 2.5M difference not being there is stunning.

[Aithne]

You don't... that's not how percentages work. If you had 75% baseline PvP power already, the weapon's extra 25% would account for 1/8th of your total damage output. If you had 275% baseline PvP power, the weapon would be contributing 1/12th of your total damage. Even if you have ZERO existing PvP gear, and your baseline PvP power is 0, your total damage dealt goes from 100 to 125%, and of the 125% total damage you deal, the weapon contributes exactly 20% of your damage (25 / 125 = 0.2). And btw, resilience does not affect this calculation whatever.

[LyranVirgo]

Even if Im wrong and it is really 17% (i dont have the spreadseets) lets just not pretend its can be overlooked.

[LyranVirgo]

To my knowedge, all raw damage is first amplified by pvp power and then reduced by resilience. So according to this, less pvp power is exponentially weaker. Correct me if Im wrong.

[Aithne]

Well, the more baseline PvP power you have, the less an extra additive 25% matters.

The thing is, with the extra mitigating factors, yeah sure dps is 17% weaker, but if healers are also 10% weaker for... what, four weeks, some of which are holidays where nobody is playing anyways, the impact isn't going to be big enough to be worth mitigating, as mitigation efforts also have a cost (here, since PvE items are already being fucked with by the downscale, it would lead to visual confusion, in addition to possible trinket related abuses/complaints, or if we somehow bodged our way out of upscaling trinkets, the ui would absolutely shit itself).

Resilience and PvP power are not additive with each other, but multiplicative. If a player has 0% resilience and your frostbolt deals 100k base damage, 25% PvP power makes it 125k, 50% PvP power makes it 150k. If your target has 50% resil instead, those numbers are 50k, 62.5k and 75k respectively, their ratios are the same and 62.5/75 is the same number as 125/150, or 5/6.

[LyranVirgo]

I remeber calculating and it makes perfect sense. For example my Templars Verdict would hit always 250k on dummy. On players its 250k + 50% pvp power thats 375k - 80% resilience thats 75k. Exactly. Thats the thought process. Im pretty sure its like this. So this is why Im concerned that 80% resilience is still there and im not getting the amp to counter it and im exponentially behind the damage curve. Ehh.. anyways. I get it, its just frustrating to lose to bad players who cant even kite. We set up 4-5 chains in row and as a double dps we dont have time to bring them down. And I know its just that missing damage. We both deal 150k more thats an entire hp bar.. crazy. But again, I'll stop. Just wanted to make something happen, not worth it, just 2 weeks.

[Aithne]

Yeah but if you already have 25% resil, that same Templar's Verdict does 250 * 1.25 = 312.5 on a resil-less player, and 312.5 * 0.2 = 62.5k on that player, compared to 75k, you lost 12.5k damage from that 75k, 1/6th of it. Double dps comps were never really viable, sadly, the top of both old Tauri 2v2 ladder and MB1 latter throughout all seasons were cookie cutter healer-dps comps like any pairing of arms, frostmage or dk with a hpriest or resto druid.

[LyranVirgo]

I would just like to add that the current rank1 2s team is double dps. And they got the 2.2k achievment beacuse this damage imbalance. It is because they are magic damage dealers. Physical damage is further reduced because of armor so magic damage is still kinda viable, or at least stronger than physical. This is an entirely new topic but I would like to suggest rating decay system if not played for 1 month or so.  Because these current 2.2k players reached that in a more beneficial system and they can tank it the entire season.

[Aithne]

Physical damage is reduced mostly because weapon dps is lower. The druid, just based on the healing/damage ratios, does seem like resto, not balance, though, in at least some of the matches.

Idk. Just hold out for the weapon, please 😄
 

And I still have a hope for the ladder being revitalized and those 2.2k players needing to keep up with their rating to stay competitive.