Realm: Netherwing Proposing release date of ZA/patch 2.3

[Matick]

The gap between patch 2.0 to 2.1/2.2 was about 5 months or so - which is respectable since it had two tiers of content to work through.

I think the gap between current patch and 2.3 - primarily ZA content - should be shorter, roughly 3 months or so (release around early December or so would be fantastic)

Reason is because ZA in itself is not a progression tier - it is a great catch-up raid in terms of gear. Patch 2.3 also brings a lot of other convenient catch-up mechanics and new badge gear, and I think also will help Kara to be more active due to badges that drop from that.
 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Matick

[Qualified]

Couldn't agree more and i've actually said the same within Qualified's discord that it should drop earlier.
ZA won't change anything in terms of progression for current guilds that's currently able to clear BT/MH but it could definately improve things for the lesser guilds and allow more of them to step foot into T6.
Gives those who clear T6 in shortier periods of time to have alot more things to do aswell which should increase player retention to the server.

[BroBeard]

I agree with both Qualified and Matik.

To put my own 2 cents on this topic - It doesn't look like any other guild is gonna kill Illidan during progression any time soon, so instead of nerfing BT or MH, ZA could help them out with progression to use the catch up gear. As Matik said early December would be the most comfortable time to release the instance since November ( 2 months of Black Temple and Mount Hyjal ) would be long enough of time to declare server being T6 geared which is why ZA wouldn't make everyone super geared out of nowhere, especially if the Devs decide to remove all attunements when it releases, just to help more people get into actual T6 content.

As someone who's done all content right now, it would revive high tier gamers' hype. Just don't nerf T6 ❤️ 

[Wolfenstein]

We are leaning towards December 13th at the moment.

[BroBeard]

December 6 and you got a deal 

[Matick]

Date seems fine to me.

[Raidboomie]

pls, NO

There are peopel on this server that enjoy T5 as they slowly progress toward MH/BT

we are only getting into t5 and ZA would really obliterate this part of the Game.
 

 

Pls dont make server Progression so fast - there are people who acctually enjoy T5 Content without the need to progress so fast!

[Matick]

How is it fast progression? Tier 5 has been out since early April when server was first launched, and we are now into November. If ZA launches in December that is a 9 month gap!

Also ZA does not hurt your ability to progress through T5 and T6 content. If anything it will assist you since it has a lot of good catch-up gear and opportunities.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Matick

[Raidboomie]

Its fast for Casual players like us because we are only getting T5 done now.
There is at least 2-3  Guilds on ally side that is just finnishing t4 and starting t5. ZA will skip alot of content, thats a fact, pushing to T6 like its supposed to. And we acctually like/enjoy this T5 Content, and dont want to skip it/ make it too easy with ZA progression.

Why do you need to change/speed up the Progress? The Gap inbetween the Patches is perfect. It would give enough time for t5 and then push us into t6 just right.
 

There are litterally Tons of Casual players like this on this Server (Ally). Its just not fair bc some "elite players" want to run fast to ruin content for us. 

 

 

[Nakisa]

Just made a forum account because of this topic.

As an officer in a casual raiding guild, this sounds very bad.
ZA will kill t5 raiding guaranteed. Simply because the loot is much better and a 10-man raid is much easier.
Even if you keep the attunements for BT and MH in place, it will just push t5 clearing back until ppl are overgeared AF and clear the content with a very undertuned experience.

Unless ZA Requires a t5 clear attunement, it will kill t5 raiding and item balance.

To me, this would be very sad and I think it will be very bad for the server.
I would bet it will shorten the servers lifetime immensely.

The fact that a lot of the content is nerfed already and that further add ons will do that even more is realy sad for ppl like us.

We are on average in our 30s and enjoyed the game back in the days. Nowadays, we do not have the time to raid hardcore and clear the content at a much slower pace.
It would be very sad to lose the opportunity to clear the content in a balanced manner, since that is a big part of the fun.

Unless you plan on adding mechanics that do not diminish the content that exists.
Which, if you do not change the items and requirements for raids like ZA, it will happen.

Thanks for reading.
I really hope you do not fast track releasing ZA.

[Matick]

2 hours ago, Raidboomie said:

Its fast for Casual players like us because we are only getting T5 done now.
There is at least 2-3  Guilds on ally side that is just finnishing t4 and starting t5. ZA will skip alot of content, thats a fact, pushing to T6 like its supposed to. And we acctually like/enjoy this T5 Content, and dont want to skip it/ make it too easy with ZA progression.

Why do you need to change/speed up the Progress? The Gap inbetween the Patches is perfect. It would give enough time for t5 and then push us into t6 just right.
 

There are litterally Tons of Casual players like this on this Server (Ally). Its just not fair bc some "elite players" want to run fast to ruin content for us. 

 

 

No offense - but at some point the server has to move on in progress - and think of all guilds on the server. There are many people/guilds who are looking forward to ZA and the other quality of life present with the new patch.

(see my below response for further details - no point in posting my opinions twice)

Edited November 9, 2023 by Matick

[Matick]

27 minutes ago, Nakisa said:

Just made a forum account because of this topic.

As an officer in a casual raiding guild, this sounds very bad.
ZA will kill t5 raiding guaranteed. Simply because the loot is much better and a 10-man raid is much easier.
Even if you keep the attunements for BT and MH in place, it will just push t5 clearing back until ppl are overgeared AF and clear the content with a very undertuned experience.

Unless ZA Requires a t5 clear attunement, it will kill t5 raiding and item balance.

To me, this would be very sad and I think it will be very bad for the server.
I would bet it will shorten the servers lifetime immensely.

The fact that a lot of the content is nerfed already and that further add ons will do that even more is realy sad for ppl like us.

We are on average in our 30s and enjoyed the game back in the days. Nowadays, we do not have the time to raid hardcore and clear the content at a much slower pace.
It would be very sad to lose the opportunity to clear the content in a balanced manner, since that is a big part of the fun.

Unless you plan on adding mechanics that do not diminish the content that exists.
Which, if you do not change the items and requirements for raids like ZA, it will happen.

Thanks for reading.
I really hope you do not fast track releasing ZA.

I don't agree with your assessment that this is "fast tracking". Maybe if an entirely new raid tier was being released like Sunwell - but that is not the case here and Sunwell is likely not arriving for a very long while. Patch 2.3 and ZA purely implement good quality of life changes and catch-up mechanics.

Tier 5 has been out since early April, at some point the server needs to move on and progress with the patches. I know you are a casual guild as you state - but it's been 7-8 months of tier 5 now -how much longer do we have to wait for you to clear it? Another 6+ months?

I also disagree with you that all ZA loot is better than t5. Certainly some pieces are equivalent or better itemized (A good chunk of SSC/TK gear is shit in the end and poorly designed by Blizz - let's be fully honest), but also loot from bosses like Vashj and KT are clearly superior, along with several trinkets. Tier 5 content will not go away with ZA being released.

Also keep in mind that the requirements for the ZA chest rewards for rescuing prisoners are much more difficult here than classic. The bosses have buffed health/dmg - and the timer for rescuing prisoners is significantly shorter. Certainly the boss mechanics are not super complex or difficult, but it's not going to be some type of content that you will roflstomp your way through after an hour and get a free bear or something.

I appreciate your sentiment and passion - but I really don't see the underlying issues you have with the release in the first place. This raid coming out does not hurt you in any way - it helps you. It's a 10 man that honestly Blizz should've released much earlier on in TBC - before tier 6 was even launched.
 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Matick

[Nakisa]

1 hour ago, Matick said:

No offense - but at some point the server has to move on in progress - and think of all guilds on the server. There are many people/guilds who are looking forward to ZA and the other quality of life present with the new patch.
 

 

1 hour ago, Matick said:

I don't agree with your assessment that this is "fast tracking". Maybe if an entirely new raid tier was being released like Sunwell - but that is not the case here and Sunwell is likely not arriving for a very long while. Patch 2.3 and ZA purely implement good quality of life changes and catch-up mechanics.

Tier 5 has been out since early April, at some point the server needs to move on and progress with the patches. I know you are a casual guild as you state - but it's been 7-8 months of tier 5 now -how much longer do we have to wait for you to clear it? Another 6+ months?
 

I understand both positions. But its not like these dungeons have been raided that long.
Most people didn't see those raids before the pre q was gone.
I think it should depend on how many guilds are in the middle of progressing through t5.

Especially since the nature of ZA is simply disruptive to T5 content.

1 hour ago, Matick said:

I also disagree with you that all ZA loot is better than t5. Certainly some pieces are equivalent or better itemized (A good chunk of SSC/TK gear is shit in the end and poorly designed by Blizz - let's be fully honest), but also loot from bosses like Vashj and KT are clearly superior, along with several trinkets. Tier 5 content will not go away with ZA being released.

I understand what you mean, but I think your argument underlines my point.
If the only better loot in t5 is from vashj and kael, then the only way to get better loot than ZA is to be done with T5 and be able to start t6.
Since, once you have killed Vashj and Kael, nothings stopping you from starting t6.

1 hour ago, Matick said:

Also keep in mind that the requirements for the ZA chest rewards for rescuing prisoners are much more difficult here than classic. The bosses have buffed health/dmg - and the timer for rescuing prisoners is significantly shorter. Certainly the boss mechanics are not super complex or difficult, but it's not going to be some type of content that you will roflstomp your way through after an hour and get a free bear or something.

Sure, but it is still a lot of loot, that you can simply grind out.
A random example, the plate tank boots from the first boss in ZA are arguably as good as the plate tank boots that solarian drops.
Why would anyone go through the hassle of fighting a difficult boss in a 25 men setting, when you can simply grind out a 10 man raid with a notably easier boss.
And I dont simply mean bigger numbers, I am talking about the mechanics.
A 10 man raid will never be ass challenging as a 25 man raid. I think blizzard has proven that over the years and are proving it again in the current classic metas.

If you ask me, the only way ZA will not disrupt/destroy t5 raiding, is by it being released along sunwell, as a catch up then.
Cause at that point, it does make sense to help people catch up, since SWP is t6+ content.
 

In the end, I can only argue our position.
ZA will disrupt t5 raiding for sure.
I believe it is difficult to argue against that.
Or at least, I do not see how it could not.

And for us, that would, to put it simply, suck.
Of course we are not the only people on this server and I understand the position of folks that have been done with content for a while.
But I am here to argue for us and people in our position and I hope to make our position heard.

We would like to finish t5 properly.

If ZA were to fall under the same t6 locks like MH and BT do, I would not see a problem.
But if it were to release as it did in the OG days, t5 will fall.
I am happy to be proven wrong, should it come to an early release, but from my experience that is just how it will be.

[Matick]

Fair enough I do respect your points - in the end we simply aren't going to agree on all things.

Only thing I wanted to comment on was this line:

"I think it should depend on how many guilds are in the middle of progressing through t5"

There's no way to know 100% for sure on how far along every single guilds is - but if you look at the logs website - it shows over 20 guilds are pushing T6 progress right now, with 6 guilds having cleared T6 fully.

I'm pretty sure in the end that is likely more than the number of guilds pushing T5 content at this moment (not including any Chinese guilds, but afaik they mostly do GDKP runs and aren't so focused on progression). 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Matick

[Raidboomie]

23 hours ago, Matick said:

No offense - but at some point the server has to move on in progress - and think of all guilds on the server. There are many people/guilds who are looking forward to ZA and the other quality of life present with the new patch.
 

The Topic of this Thread is litterally "proposing earlier release of ZA/patch2.3"

No one is saying anything about prolonging the Release or stalling Progress or anything like that, but rather that the Release should fall naturally to the server, wich is presumably January/Febuary.

Ofc we are all looking forward to ZA. But i dont want to skip ahead because of that.  Some Guilds are already done with everything and would like to move on to the next Content. I get it. Just please also care about the rest of the Server? Its not like the patch is running away or anything and you have to chase it you know

[Raidboomie]

19 hours ago, Matick said:

I'm pretty sure in the end that is likely more than the number of guilds pushing T5 content at this moment (not including any Chinese guilds, but afaik they mostly do GDKP runs and aren't so focused on progression). 

How is this an Argument? This is about the Whole server, not about one fraktion against the other. if some guilds are mid t5, this doesnt get outweighed by Guilds who are already done T6. this should be about whats best for the server as a whole.

And BTW theres at least 3 Guilds in T5 (for ally), not to mention the bulk of casual pug progression towards T5 thats been happening.

 

 

Sorry, i dont mean to be rude. Its understandable that those guilds would like to move on with content. 
Its just .. The release is going to come, one way or the other, and youll get your fun, and youll get your hype. I mean, we are all hype for new Content, arnt we?

Nothing is going to be lost for you by waiting an extra month or so

[Matick]

"No one is saying anything about prolonging the Release or stalling Progress or anything like that, but rather that the Release should fall naturally to the server, wich is presumably January/Febuary."

Actually - the previous server released ZA only ~3  months after T6 was released as well. So this is not out of the ordinary. But indeed - perhaps the title of my original thread should've been stated differently (I updated it) - I had no knowledge on when exactly Wolfenstein was originally scheduling to release ZA for this server or if he was going to follow the model of last server, classic, or whatever. I was just trying to push for the 2.3 patch to come out as a lot of guilds are looking forward to the many QOL present within it.

"How is this an Argument? This is about the Whole server, not about one fraktion against the other. if some guilds are mid t5, this doesnt get outweighed by Guilds who are already done T6. this should be about whats best for the server as a whole."

 

I am not trying to pit one set of guilds against others - my point is that the entire server can not wait on only a couple of guilds to finish T5 progress. I am not saying the opinions of these guilds get completely invalidated either - but at the same time - you need to look at the whole picture of all guilds and the progress of everyone - a lot of guilds who are in mid T6 are looking forward to ZA so they can get some supplemental gear to aid in the walls they are facing in their progression.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Matick

[Wolfenstein]

I was already considering a December release even before this suggestion was made.

[Raidboomie]

Well, in that case, let me appologize.
I Thougt that this pushing earlier Release Business already had influence on the Release date of the next Patch

proposing an even earlier release didnt sit right with me - but then again, how is anyone supposed to know there are still acctually players really involved in T5 content


In a way, im glad about this thread. Because now it has been heard that some T5 parts of the server are still very much alive. 
and i think its clear that ZA pretty much cuts off that part of the Game

In that sense, i would like to propose a release for beginning of next year/mid January
It would enable those parts of the server (alot of casual players like me) have the expirience of progressing through T5 that would otherwise be lost on them. 

Personally, i am very happy about this whole tbc excperience on this Server. For me, it brought me what i always wanted out of this game, but as a casual noob never got. And yes, milling through T5 is definetly something enjoy and cherish and i know that alot of people feel this way - its a one time expirience, at least for me.



In the end, i hope that whatever the call will be as to when the Patch is coming out, it will sit right and wont take away from this amazing tbc expirience so far. 

[Bladeofblood]

Deleted.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Bladeofblood

[Matick]

3 hours ago, Bladeofblood said:

Something I see hasn't been brought into the discussion is how much time a large chunk of players have to raid, if ZA releases in early December many guilds mine included would still be progressing MH& BT, while I look forward to ZA I don't want to end up missing out on progression through it as it is likely my guild will decide to do ZA on off days as main raid days are taken by the 25mans. I'd say maybe late December or Jan is better. I already raid 3 days with my guild, 4 is just abit much. Yet I don't want to miss ZA prog because it was released before a decent amount of time to clear MH/BT. MH/BT only recently released, give the non Hardcore guilds a chance to get somewhere too. 

I've never heard of a guild - even the top ones - scheduling ZA runs for main raid days. It's a short raid on a 3 day reset schedule for a reason.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Matick

[Bladeofblood]

Deleted.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Bladeofblood

[ICritMyKilt]

I do not see why so many people want to put off patches and try to hold others back from content.  Some people are not ready for new content and some are. If you are part of the T5 group that isn't ready for ZA, just stay out of it. Just because the patch drops does not mean you have to run down to the entrance to the new stuff. I can remember in retail bc/wotlk/cata/mop, there were groups doing vanilla 40-man stuff, but you were not allowed in if you had any gear newer than vanilla or you were above level 60. The level cap was 70+ and someone could have soloed or they could have done it as a 5, 10, 20, or 25-man run, but they didn't. They kept it as pure as possible and did the old content as if it were current progression. Why couldn't the T5 guilds do the same thing and finish enjoying the progression at their own pace without affecting anyone else's progression? ZA will still be there in January or June or July when you are ready. MH/BT is not going to close because Sunwell opens. I also remember in BC there were guilds that couldn't clear Karazhan, but my guild had two 5-man teams that would race there after BT to see who could clear Karazhan first. It would not have been fair to us, to delay patches and new content because those other guilds were struggling with the content.

[Bladeofblood]

Deleted

Edited November 17, 2023 by Bladeofblood

[Raidboomie]

On 11/16/2023 at 2:25 PM, ICritMyKilt said:

I do not see why so many people want to put off patches and try to hold others back from content.  Some people are not ready for new content and some are. If you are part of the T5 group that isn't ready for ZA, just stay out of it. Just because the patch drops does not mean you have to run down to the entrance to the new stuff. I can remember in retail bc/wotlk/cata/mop, there were groups doing vanilla 40-man stuff, but you were not allowed in if you had any gear newer than vanilla or you were above level 60. The level cap was 70+ and someone could have soloed or they could have done it as a 5, 10, 20, or 25-man run, but they didn't. They kept it as pure as possible and did the old content as if it were current progression. Why couldn't the T5 guilds do the same thing and finish enjoying the progression at their own pace without affecting anyone else's progression? ZA will still be there in January or June or July when you are ready. MH/BT is not going to close because Sunwell opens. I also remember in BC there were guilds that couldn't clear Karazhan, but my guild had two 5-man teams that would race there after BT to see who could clear Karazhan first. It would not have been fair to us, to delay patches and new content because those other guilds were struggling with the content.

Im afraid thats not going to work. We cant  just ignore the Changes on the whole server - its going to affect us. And i believe those effects have already been iterated upon in great detail here, so im not going to repeat that.

Dont take this the wrong way ok but really, speak for yourself. stop trying to present solutions to us that wont work for obvious reasons. The examples you are making do not apply to us or anyone else currently progressing - in fact, they dont even come near. We are heavily but still Casually involved in T5, progressing and not struggling. Theres at the very least 3 other guilds like this. And As ive said, its clearly January and not June. 

Youve spoken your viewpoint, as have i and others. Lets let the Devs decide what will be best for the whole server.