General Make battlegrounds reward contribution

[Scytheria23]

So... one of my main peeves (with retail too, so not limited to StormForge) is the way that battlegrounds encourage poor play.  All of StormForge's realms are PvP realms, so there is an incentive to make these as good as possible.

Currently, the highest honor rewards from a BG go to those who cause the most killing blows.  This means that healers or those who actively guard bases or cap flags get very little for their efforts.  The 'rules' favor the 'fight in the middle' mentality (which generally loses a BG).  

I'd strongly suggest making it more rewarding to top each of the tables in a BG.  That way, you can gain more honor by either killing more enemies, healing more allies, capping more flags, returning more flags, etc.

 

[Tsu]

2 hours ago, Scytheria23 said:

So... one of my main peeves (with retail too, so not limited to StormForge) is the way that battlegrounds encourage poor play.  All of StormForge's realms are PvP realms, so there is an incentive to make these as good as possible.

Currently, the highest honor rewards from a BG go to those who cause the most killing blows.  This means that healers or those who actively guard bases or cap flags get very little for their efforts.  The 'rules' favor the 'fight in the middle' mentality (which generally loses a BG).  

I'd strongly suggest making it more rewarding to top each of the tables in a BG.  That way, you can gain more honor by either killing more enemies, healing more allies, capping more flags, returning more flags, etc.

 

Thank you for the suggestion, we already increased some default values for playing objectives. I will look more into it again.

Healers should also get credit for killing blows when healing a player who's in combat, so I don't see how they get less honor unless it is not working as it should be.

[tedform]

damage to pets and shields, especially shields, should count on the scoreboard, i believe even to this day it doesn't on retail
honor per kill should be more proportional to damage done, if there are people near and you solo kill someone you get like 20 honor and when no one is near you get anywhere from 50 to 100 (if i need honor why wouldn't i ignore objectives and chase the solo kills)
on last bg i did like 95% on one guy, first kill of the day, i get 6 honor? i really don't know how blizzard could possibly justify this design

[tedform]

On 4/16/2024 at 7:31 PM, tedform said:

damage to pets and shields, especially shields, should count on the scoreboard, i believe even to this day it doesn't on retail
honor per kill should be more proportional to damage done, if there are people near and you solo kill someone you get like 20 honor and when no one is near you get anywhere from 50 to 100 (if i need honor why wouldn't i ignore objectives and chase the solo kills)
on last bg i did like 95% on one guy, first kill of the day, i get 6 honor? i really don't know how blizzard could possibly justify this design

two random guys, i rest my case

[Scytheria23]

So... pondering this a little more.  The trick is to reward players for actually playing well, rather than just hunting for solo honour-kills.  To be a truly PVP-focused server, it's probably time to abandon Blizzard's crazy thinking.

Here are some ideas - based on the idea that a win, under normal circumstances, should net about 1500h, that a loss should net about 500h and that there should be no individual honor rewards (only team rewards).   

Contribution

How do you reward contribution towards a win?  This should come down to doing the things that achieve a victory (e.g. taking/defending bases or capping flags).  The 'kills' are simply a by-product of doing these things.

• Taking bases - a basic 100h reward (to each team member) for taking or stealing a base.  This to be awarded only twice per base per game (to prevent the two sides from arranging a base-swap routine to scam honour points).
• Defending bases - when fighting at a base claimed by your side (within 60 yards), each enemy killed rewards each team member 5h.  Also, remove the 'inactivity' debuff that forces defenders to abandon bases just to stay in the game.
• Attacking bases - when fighting at a base claimed by your opponents (within 60 yards), each enemy killed rewards each team member 5h. 
• Capping flags - a basic 100h (to each team member) for capping a flag.
• Top 10 damage (from both sides combined) = 100, 90, 80, 70, 60, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10h - so if the top 10 players are Alliance, Horde, Horde, Alliance, Alliance, Alliance, Horde, Horde, Horde, Alliance, the honor gained (to each team member) will be Alliance = 100 + 70 + 60 + 50 + 10 = 290, Horde = 90 + 80 + 40 + 30 + 20 = 260
• Top 10 healing (from both sides combined) = 100, 90, 80, 70, 60, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10h - as per damage
• Multiply each individual player's honor by a value between 0 and 1 for 'time served' (e.g. scaled amount of time in the actual game). This de-incentivizes those who drop into random BG's, check to see if a win is likely or if there is a small amount of time remaining for a loss - if the BG passes their 'test' they stay in (and maybe participate) but if not drop out and take a 15-minute break.

Not Contributing

• If kicked for being AFK, the loss of all honor gained in the BG.

Winning/Losing

• No additional honor.  The 3 badges / 1 badge reward is sufficient.

[tedform]

the "basic 100h rewards" for all team members is basically charity, too many people already believe bgs are their personal charity for "ez gear", you can get 2 rep set pieces just by leveling up, 200g on the ah and you have 3 pieces, they don't even bother to do this, these bonuses should be individually awarded, 10 people fight at the flag, 9 never tried to click it, 9 never had the common sense to cc the respawns, and if one has the common sense to go ninja another base when 66% of enemy team is occupied, they should get the bonus alone
the 60 yard range for extra honor is too long, it should be like 30 yards from the flag, max, think those endless fights between farm and blacksmith, they don't really try to attack farm, they just want to grind kills, or another favorite, in eots, how many times have you seen them "defending" 5 yards outside of the base cap zone?
"Multiply each individual player's honor by a value between 0 and 1 for 'time served'" you wait 10 minutes in the wsg queue and you join an in progress game (btw we should get a 5 sec prep for self buffs and have health/mana topped to max), you are already punished in honor-per-hour terms by not joining a fresh game, more punishment?
"If kicked for being AFK, the loss of all honor gained in the BG." this, absolutely

[Scytheria23]

PVP comes down to three things:  World PVP, Battlegrounds and Arenas.  Only the last two of these are viable ways of gearing-up for PVP (assuming you value Resilience), so I don't see participation in them as being a form of charity or EZ-gear.  They're the only way to progress your PVP gear, so what does it matter how quickly it's obtained?  Everybody earns at the same rate and pays the same prices for things.

Perhaps 60 yards is too much for base-capping (I'm a metric person, so not by-default aware of the size of things in yards!).  

I'm not sure anybody is currently 'punished' at all in terms of 'honor per hour' by joining a game late.  I'll personally confess to having abused the system a little in the past.  You queue, and join the first BG you can  get into.  If it looks like a win is imminent and quick, stay in the game.  Three easy marks and a moderate amount of honor.  If it looks like a loss is imminent, but the remaining time is short, stay in the game. One easy mark and a tiny bit of honor.  If you join a new game, see how the first few minutes pan out - you'll know soon enough if the game is a likely win or a likely loss.  In fact, you can often tell the outcome just by examining the composition of the two sides or by looking at the titles/gear of your compatriots.  If it's a likely loss, leave.  If a likely win turns into a likely loss, leave unless only a few minutes remain.  

If none of these scenarios, just leave the game and wait 15 minutes.  That actually tends to net the highest 'honor per hour' rate with the least effort.  Now, I've fessed-up, and I don't do this any more, but there's a lot of people who do.  You'll see their entry to the BG announced, followed a few seconds later by their exit.

The aim here, of course, is to allow players to maximize their 'honor per hour' rate by playing well, not by playing badly.  In addition, to minimize the 'honor per hour' rate of those who do play badly or who AFK or who abuse the queuing system.

--

As an extra thought... how about increasing (say by 50%) the honor rewards for any pre-made groups in BGs, whether they win or lose?  This would greatly encourage PVP guilds to form and play well.

Edited May 3 by Scytheria23

[tedform]

On 5/3/2024 at 4:00 AM, Scytheria23 said:

PVP comes down to three things:  World PVP, Battlegrounds and Arenas.  Only the last two of these are viable ways of gearing-up for PVP (assuming you value Resilience), so I don't see participation in them as being a form of charity or EZ-gear.  They're the only way to progress your PVP gear, so what does it matter how quickly it's obtained?  Everybody earns at the same rate and pays the same prices for things.

Perhaps 60 yards is too much for base-capping (I'm a metric person, so not by-default aware of the size of things in yards!).  

I'm not sure anybody is currently 'punished' at all in terms of 'honor per hour' by joining a game late.  I'll personally confess to having abused the system a little in the past.  You queue, and join the first BG you can  get into.  If it looks like a win is imminent and quick, stay in the game.  Three easy marks and a moderate amount of honor.  If it looks like a loss is imminent, but the remaining time is short, stay in the game. One easy mark and a tiny bit of honor.  If you join a new game, see how the first few minutes pan out - you'll know soon enough if the game is a likely win or a likely loss.  In fact, you can often tell the outcome just by examining the composition of the two sides or by looking at the titles/gear of your compatriots.  If it's a likely loss, leave.  If a likely win turns into a likely loss, leave unless only a few minutes remain.  

If none of these scenarios, just leave the game and wait 15 minutes.  That actually tends to net the highest 'honor per hour' rate with the least effort.  Now, I've fessed-up, and I don't do this any more, but there's a lot of people who do.  You'll see their entry to the BG announced, followed a few seconds later by their exit.

The aim here, of course, is to allow players to maximize their 'honor per hour' rate by playing well, not by playing badly.  In addition, to minimize the 'honor per hour' rate of those who do play badly or who AFK or who abuse the queuing system.

--

As an extra thought... how about increasing (say by 50%) the honor rewards for any pre-made groups in BGs, whether they win or lose?  This would greatly encourage PVP guilds to form and play well.

it should be even less charity-like because "charity" attracts the wrong kind of players, the players who once they have their "starter gear" they will never enter bgs again, the players who will not spend honor for pvp trinket and don't care about self improvement in pvp, for example, I'd rather not have a healer at all (we in the alliance usually don't, anyway) than having a "passer-by" who enables road fights, it's just like that warlock/mage who puts out stone/table 2 seconds before the gates open, more harm than good, and i know this direction will lead to longer queues but it's a fair trade.

personally i play to win but I've had tons of slow 20-25m losses on ab/eots weekends where i was in the top3 of honor gained with 1500+ honor, the "least effort" route with deserter debuffs and quick losses will never net more honor than actually putting out effort 😛
i leave games too especially when i'm on geared chars, i mean if you start an ab game and you see 5 people still unmounted when the gates are open, 9 people rushing from unguarded lm/gm to farm, that's a huge red flag right there for me, i won't leave to gain more honor/hr, i just don't want shitty games.

the pvp players gotta pvp anyway, the honor will come, i think a tournament of some kind with gold/consumable rewards or whatever would be more attractive (how about a persistent 1d ninja/pirate costume 😄), even with a swift flight form herbalist druid, i still hate gold farming and i do it only when i absolutely need it in between the queues

[ICritMyKilt]

Loss of honor earned would be stupid.  there are trolls that get people kicked saying they are AFK when they actually aren't and playing half a BG and then losing everything because a troll got you kicked wouldn't be fair. It would also give the trolls even more incentive to do it.

There could also be wife aggro situations where someone plays and is a very active participant for 90% of the BG and then wife aggro and they have to AFK and come back to find that their efforts were wasted for that first 90%.

Now if the honor gains just for existing came at the end of the BG and they didn't rack up any honor for actual activity and they were AFK for the entire time then they could get AFK kicked and not earn any honor for the BG.  If you didn't actually earn any honor then you shouldn't get any honor.

[tedform]

23 hours ago, ICritMyKilt said:

There could also be wife aggro situations where someone plays and is a very active participant for 90% of the BG and then wife aggro and they have to AFK and come back to find that their efforts were wasted for that first 90%.

it's stupid only if it works by a vote, server should check for activity.
wife aggro or kid crying is not our problem, the wife wouldn't "aggro" if the husband was playing a basketball game at the local court, make her understand it's like a irl game, all this is still afking, i don't even afk to go pee and if i must afk for other reasons i just leave the bg, it's the decent thing to do.

[ICritMyKilt]

On 5/22/2024 at 10:50 AM, tedform said:

it's stupid only if it works by a vote, server should check for activity.
wife aggro or kid crying is not our problem, the wife wouldn't "aggro" if the husband was playing a basketball game at the local court, make her understand it's like a irl game, all this is still afking, i don't even afk to go pee and if i must afk for other reasons i just leave the bg, it's the decent thing to do.

Then the question becomes what qualifies as "active"?  If I roll heals and I get a perpetual motion machine that keeps pressing my heal button and healing myself standing in the GY, does all that healing count as being "active"?  If I let my six year old play my character and run around, does that count as "active"?  Guaranteed my six year old will do little to no damage/healing and die a lot, but if she is near activity and gets HKs and takes lots of damage that is activity.  It is harder for the game server to quantify activity, which is why you report bots and the GMs review the report and take action rather than letting the server smack everything it thinks is a bot with a ban hammer.

If I spend 30 minutes waiting for a BG to pop then contribute to the best of my abilities for the majority of the BG and then need to AFK because my kid starts yelling "Daddy!", sorry, but I'm not leaving and wasting all the time I put in.  I'm finding out what the kid needs and coming back as quick as I can.