Realm: Netherwing Latest News Discussion - Patch 2.3 Announcement

[Wolfenstein]

You can discuss the latest news Patch 2.3 Announcement in this topic.

[Matik]

Can we also add in Kara attunement removal?

This will allow alt characters easier access to farm badges from it.

[Matik]

Regarding the normal/heroic difficulty split though - thinking on it a bit more - it's an interesting idea but I can see the difficulty (pun intended) in implementing it for other raids. The biggest problem is how to tie in proper rewards for doing a raid as "heroic" difficulty vs "normal" difficulty

For ZA it seemed like a simple solution as you presented - tying the prisoner system to it - which indeed gives quite a lot of incentive (bis rings and bear mount).

But for a future raid like Sunwell, or previous raids like BT/MH/etc (if you decide to go back and do it for previous raid tiers), I don't feel like just more gear is an enough incentive. Blizz of course provided incentives for hard modes by making it drop loot that is higher ilvl, something that can't really be done in TBC.

Is dropping only 1 more piece of loot worth it for banging your head against Brutallus (as an example) and barely beating the enrage timer with 4 healers - rather than doing normal mode and 1-2 shotting it?

On a certain other server, it was attempted to do a "heroic" mode for Naxxramas in Wrath of the Lich King (before ofc Blizz officially implemented such a mechanic), they did a similar approach of having it just drop more loot. After a few weeks, it was found to be easier for raid comps just to do split raids instead and normal mode Naxx, as that resulted in more convenient loot, completing bypassing the original design idea for the heroic Naxx system. Will similar happen here if it's implemented? Well I can possibly see it, again there just needs to be a strong incentive for doing heroic, I don't have any great ideas personally though.

[Wolfenstein]

Quote

Is dropping only 1 more piece of loot worth it for banging your head against Brutallus (as an example) and barely beating the enrage timer with 4 healers - rather than doing normal mode and 1-2 shotting it?

Unfortunately I don't really see an easy solution to this, the only thing is that Brutallus would probably only be available in Heroic mode, so guilds wishing to progress further would have no choice but to beat it. After that a release of a normal version would just mimic the usual nerf that would occur. Not quite the same but you get the point. Ultimately the system isn't perfect but then again, there isn't one out there that is. What we did before on previous realms wasn't perfect for everyone either. There's bound to be some quirks and edge cases but that doesn't mean we have to reject a potential overall improvement in most other situations.

[LLLLL]

About normal/heroic loot，Is there an explanation?Easy for players to choose

 

[Pintolol]

Is that kind of joke or what ? Add spell damage on healers items , with 1.8k bh and 100 spd while you have to get more spd from items , this can't be true.

[Matick]

4 hours ago, Pintolol said:

Is that kind of joke or what ? Add spell damage on healers items , with 1.8k bh and 100 spd while you have to get more spd from items , this can't be true.

Healing gear and weapons give 1/3 spell damage, this is blizzlike.

 

This was already going to be enabled starting with ZA (2.3) but Wolf decided to activate this a month early, that is all.

[zabradlie]

Will there be some kind of rollback switching to patch 2.3? Speaking of honor/arena points, etc.? Will I keep my points and everything after patch update?

[Matik]

There will be no rollbacks. Badge of Justice will not be removed.
And it will be the same PvP season, so no changes to honor/arena points

[kadany95]

On 12/12/2023 at 1:42 AM, Matik said:

Can we also add in Kara attunement removal?

This will allow alt characters easier access to farm badges from it.

+1 to this, totally agree

I think there are many of us on this server who don't really have the time/energy to go through these long questlines, and just want raiding once or twice a week, just for fun.
Also, these people (like me), know all the tactics for Kara, and already done the Attunement process and stuff 10+ years ago, but don't have the activity and online hours to get a Guild who is doing 25man raids after Kara, so our best shot would be Kara to get a bit geared to be able to go to 25man PUGs.

Also I think these are the same people who helps you financially maintain the server's operation the most, with stormforge essence, xp boost, etc. services, because they are just really don't have time for this, but wants to have some nostalgic fun from their childhood, play 4-8 hours a week, and pays a small amount of money to be able to do it.

Personally, for me, it would be perfectly fine as well, if I can buy the Keys for stormforge essence, since I am the one who wants to save time and energy.. 🙂 

[kadany95]

(Ah sorry and just one more comment 🙂 I think the exact same thing applies to the Heroic Dungeon Keys as well, at least from my side, like for new-joiners to be able to 'catch-up' a bit 🙂 and it would be nice for Alt characters as well)

[Wolfenstein]

I'll think about it.

[Hbkpete2002]

Our group loves the HM idea OPTION, but we truly hate the forced Hard Mode Hexlord and Zuljin fights-- ZA is meant to be a catchup 10-Man raid (aka a casual raid) and making the end bosses "unbeatable" by casual pug raids really takes the steam out of the struggling casual community. Pugs already struggle with a nerfed Kara; so a normal ZA is enough to keep 70% of the casual community from full clearing. A forced HM will stump the remaining 30% and restrict the final 2 boss's loot tables to top guilds-- goes against the soul of ZA and catch up 10-mans.

We feel adding options for Normal and HM for all bosses would of been much better served as it caters to both the casual raider and the Hardcore guilds. I know you said its expected to be like this only for the "first few weeks", but that caters to hardcore players while it gimps casuals when there is no need to as both communities can be satisfied from the start; -- essentially doing the inverse of what was intended with catch-up raids. Instead of casuals "catching up", this will widen the gap between Hardcore players and casuals...

[Wolfenstein]

2 hours ago, Hbkpete2002 said:

Our group loves the HM idea OPTION, but we truly hate the forced Hard Mode Hexlord and Zuljin fights-- ZA is meant to be a catchup 10-Man raid (aka a casual raid) and making the end bosses "unbeatable" by casual pug raids really takes the steam out of the struggling casual community. Pugs already struggle with a nerfed Kara; so a normal ZA is enough to keep 70% of the casual community from full clearing. A forced HM will stump the remaining 30% and restrict the final 2 boss's loot tables to top guilds-- goes against the soul of ZA and catch up 10-mans.

We feel adding options for Normal and HM for all bosses would of been much better served as it caters to both the casual raider and the Hardcore guilds. I know you said its expected to be like this only for the "first few weeks", but that caters to hardcore players while it gimps casuals when there is no need to as both communities can be satisfied from the start; -- essentially doing the inverse of what was intended with catch-up raids. Instead of casuals "catching up", this will widen the gap between Hardcore players and casuals...

I understand your concerns, the system is a bit of an experiment so I don't want to make too many changes at once without seeing how it works in practice. If everything works well I promise the normal version for those two bosses will come very soon.

[Hbkpete2002]

On 1/9/2024 at 1:53 AM, Wolfenstein said:

I understand your concerns, the system is a bit of an experiment so I don't want to make too many changes at once without seeing how it works in practice. If everything works well I promise the normal version for those two bosses will come very soon.

Hey Wolf,

1 month feedback: I have multiple toons that have run ZA 1-2x a week falling into all Gear ranges from casual to semi hardcore to hardcore. As expected, the majority of casual pugs are struggling hard! While my T5+ grps are able to clear 1-2 chests most of the time (and my T6 clear 2-3 chests at a good rate), Casual grps that consist of T4/badge gear just cannot do efficient runs at a fair enough rate to make this raid enjoyable. The main issue i keep running into is the raid being far too GEARED TANK dependent-- The bosses just hit WAY TO HARD. Talk among the community is that you essentially NEED T5+ tanks to Tank ZA-- however T5+ tanks have very little incentive to raid ZA (outside of guild runs) due to ZA not really dropping upgrades for T5+ equivalent tanks. It feels like you need ZA/T5+ gear to tank a raid meant to catch up you to T5-- ive been in good T6 raids which brought along full T4 Tanks that just didn't have the mitation necessary to survive Nalorakk Normal (also some of Hexlord's adds do waay too much damage). While i think Heroic is properly tuned to be a challenge for our T5/T6 groups (along with adequate rewards), Normal mode seems much too overturned for Casual T4/badge tanks-- which leaves casual tanks discouraged to join pugs, which in turns creates huge /spam times LF tank, which leads to a large chunk of the casual population being restricted from ZA: a raid meant to be a CATCH UP RAID. 
 

I think you guys should look into the casual average tank's (Mix of T4, badge, crafted) gear and consider adjusting NORMAL mode Boss damage to mirror a similar gear level to incentivize more tanks to qualify and be able to tank NORMAL ZA (Heroic ZA seems ok). 

[Wolfenstein]

On 2/9/2024 at 9:18 AM, Hbkpete2002 said:

Hey Wolf,

1 month feedback: I have multiple toons that have run ZA 1-2x a week falling into all Gear ranges from casual to semi hardcore to hardcore. As expected, the majority of casual pugs are struggling hard! While my T5+ grps are able to clear 1-2 chests most of the time (and my T6 clear 2-3 chests at a good rate), Casual grps that consist of T4/badge gear just cannot do efficient runs at a fair enough rate to make this raid enjoyable. The main issue i keep running into is the raid being far too GEARED TANK dependent-- The bosses just hit WAY TO HARD. Talk among the community is that you essentially NEED T5+ tanks to Tank ZA-- however T5+ tanks have very little incentive to raid ZA (outside of guild runs) due to ZA not really dropping upgrades for T5+ equivalent tanks. It feels like you need ZA/T5+ gear to tank a raid meant to catch up you to T5-- ive been in good T6 raids which brought along full T4 Tanks that just didn't have the mitation necessary to survive Nalorakk Normal (also some of Hexlord's adds do waay too much damage). While i think Heroic is properly tuned to be a challenge for our T5/T6 groups (along with adequate rewards), Normal mode seems much too overturned for Casual T4/badge tanks-- which leaves casual tanks discouraged to join pugs, which in turns creates huge /spam times LF tank, which leads to a large chunk of the casual population being restricted from ZA: a raid meant to be a CATCH UP RAID. 
 

I think you guys should look into the casual average tank's (Mix of T4, badge, crafted) gear and consider adjusting NORMAL mode Boss damage to mirror a similar gear level to incentivize more tanks to qualify and be able to tank NORMAL ZA (Heroic ZA seems ok). 

Is the issue only with Boss melee damage? I can reduce it if that's the case.

[Hbkpete2002]

40 minutes ago, Wolfenstein said:

Is the issue only with Boss melee damage? I can reduce it if that's the case.

Yeah looks like it. The sudden burst damage that smacks down T4 Tanks in 2Globals happens way too often on all bosses (esp Bear, Lynx, Hexlord Mobs); weve tested it with different Tanks/Classes using proper mechanics and it just seems to happen much too often; one time even with T6 healers/dps a T4 crit capped Druid kept getting smacked on bosses (trash was fine). The thing is, it just seems way too TANK gear dependent compared to heroic-- heroic seems fine when using T5+; Its almost as if you need the same tier of tank gear that you use for normal. Thanks

[Matik]

Probably also reduce the damage of these abilities in normal from bear boss + lynx boss:

https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/spell=42384/brutal-swipe
https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/spell=43267/saber-lash

I am surprised to hear about the Hexlord adds though, are you CCing 3 of them and killing one at a time? The boss's drain power doesnt' start until he hits 80% health so you can be extra safe there and kill them all before pushing Hexlord.

I see in logs a lot of groups wiping to dragonhawk boss (Jan'alai) which you didn't mention, but I think it's just the mechanics of the fight, not sure what further nerfs could be done either aside from melee damage as Wolf already stated.

Edited February 10 by Matik

[Wolfenstein]

I nerfed the Bosses and Malacrass' adds damage quite significantly on Normal Difficulty right now, should hopefully make a meaningful difference.

[Hbkpete2002]

6 hours ago, Matik said:

Probably also reduce the damage of these abilities in normal from bear boss + lynx boss:

https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/spell=42384/brutal-swipe
https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/spell=43267/saber-lash

I am surprised to hear about the Hexlord adds though, are you CCing 3 of them and killing one at a time? The boss's drain power doesnt' start until he hits 80% health so you can be extra safe there and kill them all before pushing Hexlord.

I see in logs a lot of groups wiping to dragonhawk boss (Jan'alai) which you didn't mention, but I think it's just the mechanics of the fight, not sure what further nerfs could be done either aside from melee damage as Wolf already stated.

Yes 100% proper tactics. The Ogre in particular, if he lust's (and purge is 1GCD late) and he parry/haste attacks; he 2shots our "T4" pally 2x in 4 attempts. In heroic we never see this issue. No solo add should be able to kill a T4 tank that fast in Normal, and again this is for the casual 10man normal pugs, our T5 and T6 grps have zero issues. Its been addressed though, so i hope to see more casual participation in ZA normal.

Dragonhawk is fine, that one is pure mechanics. With proper tactics, average geared Tanks are fine. The main issue overall is T4 equivalent tanks getting hammered by bosses and basically needing ZA/T5+ gear to tank it effectively. 

These changes should encourage more T4 equivalent tanks and help the casual population's confidence in venturing out to ZA.

[Hbkpete2002]

2 hours ago, Wolfenstein said:

I nerfed the Bosses and Malacrass' adds damage quite significantly on Normal Difficulty right now, should hopefully make a meaningful difference.

Thank you